[LINUX] XBMC for Linux on PlayStation 3 (PS3)?

After reading other topics about porting to other consoles has the xbmc team seen some articles on http://ps3dev.info and the possible value of porting to the next playstation since it aparently uses advanced hardware and OpenGL support compared to DirectX APIs?

Im sure one of these companys would generously support the xbmc team with hardware and specs if they made some offical noise.

Gamester17 please forgive me if I gave the wrong impression. I really wasn't saying getting a dev or too with the necesary skills would be easy or that anyone involved with XBMC should do anything to try to make a ps3 port happen. I'm well aware of the fact that XBMC is a non-paid volunteer project and would not expect the devs to do anything for me or anyone else but themselves. I was mearly trying to point out if the team had devs willing intresed and capable the underlying tools necessary to make such a port are already in existance. Just pointing out that it could be done and it could theoretically be done now if someone wanted too. If my programing skills were good enough I'd probably be playing with it myself. However one other point behind my post was to let it be stated in an official forum and hopefully get some verification that it could be done now without having to wait for OpenGL for ps3 linux which could take years, this was partially with the hope that it might possibly be seen by someone who was interested in andcapable of doing it. Over and ove again I've seen the idea quickly shot down as undoable at the moment which very well could cause someone who hasn't paid attention to the libps3rsx project to just shy away or wait for OpenGL under the assumption it might come soon if they already have direct access. I really didn't mean to sound like I was pressuring anyone or telling them what to do.

d4rk well I hope that they do have it mostly solidified when XBMC for linux is coming to completion. And it would be awesome if you did put some work into it and even more so if it came to fruition at some point. I can only hope someone will. On the ps3 XBMC would have so much room to grow if ps3 knowledgable programmers got in there and optimized XBMC to work with the SPE's I'm fairly sure the performance and capabilities could be amazing. And I know neither project is done at this point and I probably wouldn't do it now either if I could. Or at least nothing more than some fairly simple proof of concept stuff.

And thanks to both of you for giving a little hope to us ps3 XBMC dreamers. :)

http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9287

Please search

That discussion is two years old..although I did add to it myself at the end recently :;):

I'd love to see something like XBMC on PS3. I think it'd offer a lot for any developer too - asides from functionality improvement due to hardware, really anyone with a PS3 could potentially use the software which is BIG in terms of audience exposure. No mod chips would be required.

I do understand the developers point about the portability of its code, and its existing dependencies, but they had to start somewhere with XBMC at one point, and I think there'd be a big big opportunity here if they were willing to make another new start, incorporating their experience from XBMC. So I don't know if we should be thinking so much of a port of XBMC, but a new project aimed at the different hardware.

I'm guessing someone else will do it if the guys behind XBMC don't, but again I think the opportunity here is huge, and they'd have a leg up over virtually anyone else given their experience. I can't see how this wouldn't be attractive given the mix of hardware and apparent openess and accessibility for the userbase.

A beta for the ps3. it's really close all that needs to be done is getting developers to start the project since no one has even started to port it for ps3 linux.

lol

True the linux thing offers potential.. i can't think how Sony could cripple it really. And it's probably a good move.. it lets people do homebrew without cracking the security of the console and opening the door for piracy.

from my (admittedly very) limited understanding of all this, the Linux PS3 version of XBMC would still be based on Ubuntu. Would it not make sense to use the PS3 optimised Yellow Dog distro? AFAIK it already has access to all the relevent hardware on the PS3 t allow it to take full advantage of the power of the console. or maybe I just don't understand how it all works. :/Any discussion of exacly which actual Linux distrobution XBMC would be using if ever portet to the PS3 is a moot point at this stage, proper hardware accelerated 3D graphic support is first needed for the PS3 RSX GPU (for any Linux distrobution), ...thus all any one of us can do is wait for libps3rsx (http://svn.pspdev.org/listing.php?repname=ps3ware&path=%2Ftrunk%2Flibps3rsx%2F&rev=0&sc=0) (or similar library/driver) to became mature enough, or if you got the skills then you can help those projects out.

If the homebrew scene takes off on the PS3, I'm sure someone will want to make something like XBMC, and the fact that XBMC is open source, they've got a good starting point...

Unfortunately I think its going to be a very long time before homebrew can work on PS3 or 360.

Yeah, except that's never going to happen. Even if they get the GPU working in linux for 3D, the PPE is way too slow to play HD video on its own without GPU offloading. It's about the same speed as a 1.6Ghz PPC G5. If ffmpeg exploited all of the SPEs it would work, but that's not going to happen in this lifetime.

Hmm. However, on page 5:

Without 3D acceleration, XBMC will barely run at 1-2 fps, which you can try by compiling the Linux port with SDL 2D instead of OpenGL.

So will SDL be a viable solution? Ie., is there a reason to assume that SDL on the PS3 will be faster then on the PC, or is there somebody working on SDL XBMC performance?

BTW, to the entire XBMC team, my eternal thanks for the best interface on any TV-based system ever.

BenO169,

that's the ultimate goal of the devs,
but right now, there are more important things to be done than full compatibility..

Why? For some 3D-effects? I don't see anything on my Xbox/XBMC that I want that needs 3D-hardware. I can nearly implement the 3D-effects I see there on a C64.

XBMC uses a 3D API for its core drawing (skins/video/vizes/etc). The Linux port uses OpenGL, the Xbox version uses DirectX. Now just because it's called a 3D API, doesn't mean you have to do fancy "3D effects". XBMC (just like OS X) uses it mostly for 2D rendering (which is basically just a subset of 3D rendering). Without 3D acceleration, XBMC will barely run at 1-2 fps, which you can try by compiling the Linux port with SDL 2D instead of OpenGL.

Anyway, the bottom line is, a platform without 3D acceleration, will never be a viable target for XBMC. On the plus side, like psorcerer pointed out (http://xbmc.org/forum/showpost.php?p=156293&postcount=40), there are some hackers that have made a lot of progress in accessing the RSX from within Linux. If this turns into a successful OpenGL implementation, then the PS3 will be a viable target.

Hi, so I know this has been talked about alot.. but with all I have read I am curious what the status is on this.. Meaning is it dead and noone is looking into it or is it still being looked into? It's funny because I saw that xbmc is working linux and that linux has been installed on the ps3, so without looking much futher though.. if that's the case why cant I put xbmc on linux on my ps3.. only to find that there was more to that puzzle than I originally investigated, and I am still force to keep my old original xbox console plugged in for xbmc :(

Anyway.. enought ranting for now.. just thought the ps3 could double as a awesome media center ..

Oh if it actually worked the PS3 would be absolutely ideal. Silent, low power, looks cool, and plays blu-ray disks-- you can't go wrong.

Well the megabox project have a simpler gui and is not dependent on working opengl. Ofcourse xbmc could be rewritten for the ps3 but that would be a huge project without working gl. the people trying to acess the gpu on the ps3 has not been showing any intrest to write a accelerated opengl library, and no one seems intrested in writing a non opengl backend for xbmc wich relies on the gpu library for the ps3. these are kind of big things that needs some new developers to step up. if any of the few devs we had now would try such a thing we would not have a stable xbmc before the ps3 gets ancient. so the first step to get xbmc running on the ps3 would be finding new devs that can either write opengl libs or write a new backend.

I find it laughable the xbmc team would wait for either Microsoft (lol) or another team to crack the 360 security before considering offical development on another platform even though there will be alternatives.
Im sure even morbo would be pleased.

i find you laughable.

a) we have NEVER said we are waiting for the 360 to be cracked, we are waiting for _something_ to be cracked/made available.
b) the ps3 is months off, would it be better if we said we're waiting for it to be cracked?

That is probably the smallest problem of the hurdles to cross, and it is out of our hands anyway, (The FFmpeg Project (http://www.ffmpeg.org) deals with that part).

Yeah, I know we depend on FFmpeg as well as PS3 project MegaBox depends on MPlayer (is it is Freevo based)
Again, ppl involved in getting RSX power say that the main problem is lack of optimized codecs (and high level API when we speak about XBMC port, because they already got about 70% RSX power in case of pre 2.1 firmware)

Currently I asked and I'm waiting for someone at PS3Hax who uses MegaBox beta to tell how well it plays my 35Mbps sample. Probably it will be as bad as pure MPlayer like ppl reported me (unless MegaBox devs got optimized codecs, but I believe they don't)

Is there a possibility of XBMC on PS3 due to this??

http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/news/2006/2006-10-17.shtml

I'm sold on PS3 if it's going to be the case

That's pretty awesome! But xbmc/linux doesn't use mplayer anymore.

Not for the codecs/decoding, but for the GUI rendering.

Basically XBMC on PS3 dicsussion is a moot point until Sony enables 3D hardware acceleration under Linux.

Why? For some 3D-effects? I don't see anything on my Xbox/XBMC that I want that needs 3D-hardware. I can nearly implement the 3D-effects I see there on a C64.

I won't delve deeply into the conversation, but this is entirely true. Out of all of the media-oriented software that I've used XBMC is by far my favorite regardless of the platform.

Quoted and bumped because i agree 100% wholeheartedly..

XBMC is the best media center solution across ALL platforms and ALL environments PERIOD. Even the dedic

What most people are missing:

Yes, it was an interresting ride with modding Xboxes so they could run fun software like XBMC.
No, it wasn't fun to depend on a closed SDK like Xbox version always has and always will (unless someone "port" it to OpenXDK in 10 years (not us!))

I don't own a PS3, but I understand it can run something they call 'Alternative OS' like Yellow Dog Linux, with "Nutered" hardware support. Sony can at any time make the 'Alternative OS' option even more nutered. Only thing that can enable better hardware support is hacking the damn machine, I'm sure Sony aren't too fond of this (even if it is their own fault!).
And we're almost back at square one... I never saw Xbox360 nor PS3 as viable platforms.

I want XBMC to be as LEGIT as it can be. I'm quite sure most if not all of Team XBMC agrees with this.

This doesn't stop some other team from taking our sourcecode and porting it, you are most welcome as long as you abide by GPL.
I don't see a future in "Closed Platforms".

(these have just been some ramblings by me - just before bed)

It's very obvious that you're not a programmer. As a programmer and former demo-coder (in the past), let me assure you that the current GUI in XBMC is no match for the cell-processor, even at 1080p.

Currently there is no suitable 3D graphics API on the PS3 that takes advantage of the Cell. Software OpenGL is out of question because it will perform marginally better than SDL 2D does currently. XBMC's skinning engine currently uses 3D internally and some skins take advantage of it. How taxing it is on the GPU also depends on the skin. Skins with lots of animations and alpha blending can give some GPUs a run for their money. There is no point doing a port that runs half assedly.

The other factor (in my mind), is libps3rsx. The authors claim that the technique they are using to access the GPU on PS3 FW < 2.10 is not actually a hack but an undocumented legit way to pass commands to the GPU. They state that blocking this completely will result in Linux being unusable on the PS3. If this is the case, then there's reason to believe that libps3rsx can be made to work on FW 2.10+. libps3rsx might eventually be an API that could be a feasible replacement to OpenGL. At that point, the SPEs could actually be used for something worthwhile rather than just blitting to screen.

I agree. Lack of developers is a show-stopper. As for the huge tasks, there could be "fast-tracks" through Framebuffer/XV instead of OpenGL/SDL wrt to simplicity and reuse of components from other projects.
Using XV instead of GL in the current Linuxport is anything but a fast-track. Moreover there will be major tradeoffs in terms of UI if overlays were used instead of a GL context. Framebuffer blitting is feasible but would perform as bad as the SDL 2D build does currently and again will result in loss of functionality until portions of the skin engine that rely on the underlying 3D API get ported to use to CPU/SPE.

All in all, IMHO, it's too early to start a port. Once libps3rsx is more mature and works on newer firmwares, then it will be interesting to take a look and give it a shot.

Yes, but that sucks. Running tversity sucks. What we really want is a simple streaming SMB mount and a player that plays everything.

Like XBMC!

boscorillium,
who needs hardware support?

Just let the processor take that job for ya
(I think the PS3 is more than capable :P)

Only question is; is it possible for the CPU to perform those tasks?

Yep. It's a shame, because 99% of these projects fail miserably when they realize how much work they've taken on. Their time would be much better spent porting XBMC to their platform of choice.

Also... Wouldn't it be easier for developers to code for uniform hardware as opposed to dealing with all kinds of random hardware/configration problems that people will have with their "environment"? (If I am wrong please let me know, it just seems logical)

To the PS3 fans, I just have this to say: "Bring your complaints to Sony".

It's Sony that crippled their Linux version on PS3 by not giving any kind of access to the CPU. It's not XBMC team's fault. It's Sony's.

Pure and simple, whether you like it or not. It's not right to vent anger in this direction, as it is the wrong direction.

...

Unfortunately 99% of HD content is encoded in .mkv files, which the PS3 can't stream. So the streaming capabilities of the PS3 are 100% useless to me

...

If you're talking about H.264/AC3 then you have to remux (note: not re-encode) the .mkv files into a .m2ts or .vob file and then they play fine via local media or media server. See doom9.org.

I think that maybe you missunderstand; there is "SDL 2D" that is without 3D hardware acceleration, then SDL emulates the 3D calls in software on the CPU which is why it is so slow = 1-2 fps), then there is "SDL 3D" which uses either OpenGL (Linux/Unix) or DirectX (Win32/Windows) that is with 3D hardware acceleration that is required to render smoothly at 60+ fps. XBMC for Linux will always require that you build using "SDL 3D" and that you have underlaying 3D hardware acceleration to render smoothly.

What libps3rsx would replace is OpenGL (Linux/Unix) and DirectX (Win32/Windows), not SDL, SDL will still be used. SDL will not run faster or slower on the PS3 compared to a PC. Again, it is 3D accelerleration in hardware that XBMC requires.As you can read above, I have already tried to explain that in the existing "XBMC for PlayStation 3" thread.

That's some awesome work. Still doesn't meet the opengl requirement for XBMC...

WOW. This sounds very promising especially with Gamester17 active in the thread and the PS3 forum.

Like scaling and alphablended overlays, and the other normar gui stuff. Some of which would require more work for instance de-interlacing. And colorspace conversion but these guys have already talked about including some colorspace conversion and mentioned it's not to dificult to code.

All video-related conversions and interpolations should be what the SPE's eat for breakfast and as already said, all of this is already happening in upstream components.

And for the GUI part: i've seen several real-time ray-reace videos for the PS3 (Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEg7q2lk3QM&feature=related )

So there's definitely enough power for the GUI even without the RSX. Couldn't we abstract the GUI in a high-level API (if it's not already exist) and just drop the OpenGL stuff to a back-end using this API.

Then we can always "hope" that some of those good demo coders will give the cell a real challenge around that API. A version without the RSX at this point would be preferred, and as a start, we could "just" blit characters to a frame-buffer.

Apparently they're using ffmpeg. :)

Here's a link to the start of a decent discussion. Someone I work with does development using the SPE's. I'll try and convince him to take a look at it.

http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2007-October/037021.html

Looks like Yellow Dog Linux will have native support for PS3.

Considering most the core of XBMC is linux, will it be possible to port it over to PS3?

TerraSoft Solutions announced Yellow Dog Linux v5.0 for PS3:

When will YDL v5.0 Ship?
YDL v5.0 is slated for release mid-November with support for the Sony PS3 first, and support for the former Apple PowerPC product line to follow. Any updates required to support the Apple PowerPC systems following the release for PS3 will be made available via a free download.

How will v5.0 be made available?
Terra Soft will maintain its tradition of a 3-phase product roll-out, starting with delivery via a completely redesigned and rebuilt YDL.net suite of services. Two weeks later, the Terra Soft on-line Store will offer the Install and Source DVDs in a DVD case with printed Guide to Installation, YDL stickers, and the famous YDL Flexible Fliers. Two weeks thereafter, the images will be migrated to the public mirrors.

Which systems will be supported?
Terra Soft will initially launch YDL v5.0 with support for the Sony PS3. By the close of 2006, support for the former Apple PowerPC product line will be made available, with intent to provide both DVD and CD install images via YDL.net Enhanced and the public mirrors. The shipping product will be available as DVD only.

The change in fonts for system information is also quite amusing along with the c&p photoshop gfx :)

Wonder if thats a blu-ray disc playing? ;)

Gigabit Ethernet x3 (1 input, 2 output)

this is nowhere to see in current updated ps3 datasheet, for instance.
all features are slowly but surely vanishing (a la sony). there are even rumors that the grpahic card speed has been reduced by 10 to 20%. even the color of the case will be only available in black!

it is indeed laughable that the ps3 is so much overrated... and all that bs about linux is quite amazing, too. i dont see sony releasing a 'computer' you can freely install any linux distro on. if they do, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Also those PS3 specs are way outdated (ok, most is probably accurate but they removed several things)

xbmc/linux doesn't use mplayer anymore.

I must have missed that bit of news. What are they using instead?

no. blame sony

Unfortunately, this post brings up the rest of the gui into question:

http://xbmc.org/forum/showpost.php?p=147548&postcount=356

I couldn't agree more. Most sites wouldn't even talk about XBMC/xbox. They couldn't offer a download link due to its dubious legality.

Now if someone writes an opengl library for the PS3 accessible through linux, that would be pretty cool. But really I predict the ideal platform for XBMC in 2009 being the next-gen mac mini. Only question is whether it'll be running OSX or linux.

hey guys
i dont know if this is useful but for all linux crackers out there just a lilttle idea...maybe even useful for xbmc... :grin:
Link1 (http://www.pslegion.com/?q=node/159) Link2 (http://www.pslegion.com/?q=node/159&page=0%2C1)

Are you saying that XBMC codecs uses the GPU with mass-parallel-threading?Not for the codecs/decoding, but for the GUI rendering.

Basically XBMC on PS3 dicsussion is a moot point until Sony enables 3D hardware acceleration under Linux.

Hi,
As someone who is interested in eventually running XBMC for linux on the Playstation 3, I have some suggestions on how this could be implemented (relatively) easily.

As of right now, the big issue is lack of opengl support in linux on the PS3. It seems to me though that if some sort of "lite" gui mode were implemented, the xbmc gui could run fine without opengl. Perhaps just an alternate display path which uses only 2d SDL functions.

The only place where acceleration is really required is for the actual video display and scaling. Code has already been written as part of spu-medialib to do colourspace conversion and scaling using the Cell SPEs on the PS3.

http://wiki.ps2dev.org/ps3:spu-medialib

They are also working on an XV driver which provides this acceleration. So XBMC could either use this code itself for accelerated video output on the ps3, or could simply optionally use XV as the video output path instead of the current opengl rendering path. (This would also have the advantage of working on older pc graphics hardware without opengl shader support.)

Of course for full high def playback on the ps3, video decoding will also have to be optimized for the Cell, but this can happen upstream in ffmpeg.

So to summarize, all that's really required from XBMC to eventually make the ps3 a great platform is a non-3d user interface mode, and xv video output (or slightly better, integration of ps3 accelerated output through spu-medialib directly). XV of course has the advantage that it can be developed/tested/used on standard PC hardware as well.

does anyone no how close they are to a beta or somthing ?
must have it =)

I sincerely hope so. From past comments, I'd say no, though. Apparently developers don't have the time to convert it for some reasons that I'm sure they'll be keen to explain to you (and that fly entirely over my poor ignorant head ;)).

On the other hand, by having a real OS... I think there's pretty much you couldn't do it on PS3. Mplayer was born on Linux, if I'm not mistaken.

"I don't see why it wouldn't happen" - meant to say I don't see why it wouldn't even be considered

http://xmbcdev.blogsome.com/2007/04/01/ps3mc-on-the-way/

i have a feeling i have been fooled, but if anyone could help?

Being a huge Xbox One fan, I am sorry to say that switching to PC Linux is the clear death of XBMC... And... looking around what is actually available as for the terms of a media center.... Sony has made a hard but the only fortunate decision of all the players (unfortunately for MS this time) on the ground...

Come on people. Who is going to put crappy PC beside TV in the living room.... Just wake up and port XBMC to PS3 just the way it acts on the Xbox. PS3 has all the potential and much more to deserve to be the only next generation of this project.

XBMC is going to die out if you switch to PC. Nobody cares about them as for the media centers. People want "one box" solution in their living rooms. Thay wanna have a quite all-in-one game station on their shelf and thats it.

Once again: port it to PS3, please, if you want to keep it alive and in its natural spirits.

Actually you don't need Opengl and having an Opengl abstraction layer would be a resource waste. You don't need nearly all of the Opengl functionality. Only specific parts alot of which would probably be easily converted over to the rsx specific calls that these guys are using. Like scaling and alphablended overlays, and the other normar gui stuff. Some of which would require more work for instance de-interlacing. And colorspace conversion but these guys have already talked about including some colorspace conversion and mentioned it's not to dificult to code. It seems to me that if you guys aquired a few devs who understood how to write stuff at this lower level the conversion would be quite possible and much cleaner and more efficient than using a full featured OpenGL layer. However if you don't have those dev's it's probably a very very tricky task. But as it is they seem to have alot of the functionality you want from OpenGL already in place.

I could be wrong about this though as I don't know either XBMC's code nor their code very well but it just seems this way from what I've read of both.

I am sorry to say that switching to PC Linux is the clear death of XBMC...

Come on people. Who is going to put crappy PC beside TV in the living room....

Just wake up and port XBMC to PS3...

Once again: port it to PS3, please, if you want to keep it alive and in its natural spirits.

As inspiring and encouraging as your post is, there's much more to porting to PS3 than just "waking up", feel free to read this thread and educate yourself.

one of the reasons it has been such a big success is that the hardware being coded was a constant factor ie the xbox.

Agree, plus the cost of the hardware. By the time you have built a capable set-top box PC, buying a chipped Xbox was a no briainer.

Now that PS3's have come down in price, it's in no-brainer territory again, when you consider what else your getting for the money. :grin:

Now that I think about it though I'm sure if the XBMC linux dev's had the time they could get pretty much all the info they needed from IronPeter and Glaurung as well as more specific support in the ps3 rsx driver code for some of the features XBMC needs. That might make it a little easier.

Just a thought.

i find you laughable.

a) we have NEVER said we are waiting for the 360 to be cracked, we are waiting for _something_ to be cracked/made available.
b) the ps3 is months off, would it be better if we said we're waiting for it to be cracked?

yeah just abuse me some more that will solve everything and wtf are you on about you random?

Its just not right for a project to wait for _something_ to be available before they can consider changes to the hardware. If I was to wait for airlines to become safe you wouldnt get anywhere.

thanks to both of you for giving a little hope to us ps3 XBMC dreamers. :)If you and other 'non-developers' want to do something to help now, today, in order to possible make this PS3 port happen sooner, then again; feel free to independetly try to lobby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying) for RSX support for libSDL (http://www.libsdl.org) in libps3rsx (http://svn.pspdev.org/listing.php?repname=ps3ware&path=%2Ftrunk%2Flibps3rsx%2F&rev=0&sc=0) (and vice versa) from third-party developers/programmers elseware, such as other projects, community forums, and sites on the internet, or even friends and family, or friends of friends and family if you/they know any developers skilled and interested in this.

...like for example other open source software projects that uses SDL to accelerate graphic rendering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_using_SDL) :rolleyes: (remember that a few softwares also use SDL indirectly via ScummVM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScummVM), Pygame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygame), and DOSBox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOSBox), etc., ...my guess is also that a lot of people would want to see game-console emulators in PS3 linux and any such emulator software would also most likely be built on-top of the SDL library to run on the PS3)

Just make sure you do research before (http://www.google.com) and then ask the smart way (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) :nod:

The more poeple who show an interest, the more likely that the right people will activly join in the effort :;):

Cell is capable of doing anything XBMC is using the 3D card for. It is just different. Either wait for an OpenGL subset that uses Cell or implement something custom. There may even be other APIs in existence...

These guys rock the PS3-scene !!!
http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?t=8364&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I really enjoy XBMC on my two old XBoxes... I am really excited to hear that there is a Linux port of XBMC under development. Hopefully this will work on the Playstation 3.

Is XBMC being ported to work on the PS3?

I would definately pay money for this application on my PS3.

Keep up the good work!!!

Time to move XBMC over to the PS3! Sony is allowing Yellow Dog Linux to be installed on a PS3:

http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com

It seems to me that if you guys aquired a few devs who understood how to write stuff at this lower level the conversion would be quite possible and much cleaner and more efficient than using a full featured OpenGL layer.

Once libps3rsx (http://svn.pspdev.org/listing.php?repname=ps3ware&path=%2Ftrunk%2Flibps3rsx%2F&rev=0&sc=0) is more mature and the API is somewhat finalized, it might be something I (personally) would consider, until then there's no point starting a new rendering interface only to have the API change every few weeks. I don't think any of the other devs care about a PS3 port. In addition, the priority now is to stabilize the Linux port and make it feature complete. There's still work to be done but it's getting there. Maybe by the time the Linux port is stable, libps3rsx would be as well and it's something that could be considered.

ditto. Ubuntu is great and all (and my current OS of choice), but not what the PS3 needs to make the most out of XBMC.

a nice tight, fast linux install, just enough to be able to boot straight into XBMC (like the xbox version).

I'm actually surprised that more people aren't jumping on this, it looks like the perfect solution to give XBMC a new lease of life for the next 5 or 6 years (or 10 according to Sony, but then look at the PS1 & PS2 still going strong) that the PS3 could offer it.

HD video has well and truly landed at this stage and SD video is beginning to come to an end with terrestrial TV stations all starting to switch to digital HD content and streaming HD video and movies on disc moving to HDDVD & Blu-Ray.

let's see if we can't drum up some more interest in this. :)

As far as I know, the bigger problem than GUI is lack of Cell optimized codecs for things like h/x264 (not to mention that at PS3, only PPU is used for that). Ther are some works in progress but nothing mature enough (I'm just telling what I read at ps2dev).
Sure I'd prefere to buy PS3 instead of building another PC.

once you gone XBMC you never want to go back to using something that is anything less.

I won't delve deeply into the conversation, but this is entirely true. Out of all of the media-oriented software that I've used XBMC is by far my favorite regardless of the platform.

Maybe after XBMC 3.0 the developers might start to look at the future (and hey who knows, maybe they will even come up with their own system instead... hint, hint). But as the PS3 does run Linux (ethier well or badly depending on your perspective), there are plenty of other PVR and media center type alternatives that you could use.

What alternatives? I've only seen one or two others besides MythTV and none of them look as polished as XBMC

you'd bog it down seriously. remember, a gpu usually runs hundreds if not thousands of threads at a time. the cell can do 7.

statements like 'who needs hardware support' and 'the cell processor would play any 1080p video flawlessly' stinks of sony's hype mongery. it's not a matter of throwing any code at the cell and it will work. you have to write very specific code for a very particular processor (only 256kb local storage, need to dma everything etc) to get the best out of the cell and NO OSS media player supports this atm, expect it to take some time before they do.

Are you slow?

I'm not even a developer, and it annoys me to no end the constant stream of people saying "Just port it to PS3, it's not hard, some guy on website x said that the PS3 is cracked, blah blah". I'm surprised you guys haven't just locked the thread already. Don't worry, plenty of us are waiting patiently and quietly while you guys work on improving the best media center software out there so that we can get HD. The work is appreciated.

There's already an SDL-only path. It's bloody slow, and is not maintained. Feel free to take our code and do what you want with it.

On one last note waiting for someone to write full OpenGL for ps3 linux will likely take quite some time as IronPeter and Glaurung have no intention of even trying to do it. This is because they have largely based their code off of nouveau who is just barely scratching the surface of OpenGL, and who also aren't to concerned with it at the moment. /largely because it's a huge undertaking with a massive amount of work to be done, and they know that on the ps3 front alot of it can be achieved more clealy with direct calls. The whole point of OpenGL being to utilize one instruction set for various hardware platforms, and the ps3 being a very specific individual platform. The only reason to port OpenGL to ps3 rsx would be to simplify the porting of existing OpenGL apps for people who don't want to learn the direct calls. And their goal being to enable custom ps3 development optimized for the platform. The two goals jus don't meet. OpenGL is too much work for a non-optimal solution. Thus noone is even attempting to bring OpenGL to the ps3. I'm sure someone will try at some point but it's a long way off as the curent development is focused on the direct approach. It also seems this would be the best approach for XBMC if the devs where to make the move to ps3. Which I can only hope and pray they will decide to do. :)

It seems to me that if you guys aquired a few devs who understood how to write stuff at this lower level the conversion would be quite possible and much cleaner and more efficient than using a full featured OpenGL layer.Again, we do not have any programmers with such skills, and simply aquiring a few developers with such skills is not a simple as you might think, (I refer to the fact that when we announced the Team-XBMC was looking for Linux developers and that news even got slashdottet we still only gained one new developer since then, from the very beginming of the Linux port project). You have to remember that all developers (and all other members) of Team-XBMC are unpaid volunteers who only work on XBMC in their spare time as a hobby for fun, and they only spend time on features/functions that interest them personally, ...they do not work on XBMC for you, the end-users of XBMC, they work on XBMC for themselves.

You and I can not force anyone on Team-XBMC to work on something, all we can do as non-programmers is try to lobby good ideas and hope that someone with the skills required find those ideas interesting enough for them to take a personal interest.

As for the technical side of the PS3 and the RSX (PS3 GPU); I suppose you are right that XBMC do not need full OpenGL support, what is 'only' really needed is for RSX hardware accelerestion via libSDL (SDL = Simple DirectMedia Layer) (http://www.libsdl.org) for all the things you mentioned like YUV to RGB colorspace conversion, scaling, alphablended overlays, deinterlacing, and non-power of two textures for the GUI (using NPOT saves a lot of texture memory) ...all of which could probably be achived via direct calls to the RSX from libSDL (http://www.libsdl.org). So XBMC request what it needs from libSDL (http://www.libsdl.org) and libSDL (http://www.libsdl.org) and how libSDL (http://www.libsdl.org) provides that XBMC do not care, ...but again, I do not think that the Team-XBMC developers have the necessary low-level skills to add RSX support to libSDL (http://www.libsdl.org), that someone else would have to do.

Feel free to try to lobby support RSX support for libSDL (http://www.libsdl.org) from third-party developers elseware :rolleyes:

Not for the codecs/decoding, but for the GUI rendering.

Basically XBMC on PS3 dicsussion is a moot point until Sony enables 3D hardware acceleration under Linux.

You don't need to wait for Sony:
http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?t=8364&start=150&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

I too would love to see XBMC on the PS3. I am using tversity atm and it is no xbmc by any stretch of the imagination. I do not know too much about the workings of XBMC but from what I have read one of the reasons it has been such a big success is that the hardware being coded was a constant factor ie the xbox. I was therefore hoping that perhaps two linux versions could be produced, with one being based on the hardware settings of the ps3. I apologise in advance as my knowledge in this area is rather limited and I am unsure of whether it is possible/feasable. I just feel that if the idea has some merit and someone is willing then the ps3 could be the successor of the xbox for xbmc.

full ps3 specifications....http://ps3dev.info/content/view/14/29/

PowerPC (PPE)
Clocked at 3.2GHz
General purpose processor
Programmable in C/C++
nVIDIA RSX
Clocked at 550MHz
1.8 TFLOPS floating point performance
Full HD up to 1080 progressive with 2 channels
Dolby 5.1ch
256MB XDR system RAM
256MB GDDR3 VRAM
Gigabit Ethernet x3 (1 input, 2 output)
Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g
Bluetooth 2.0
Optical
Backwards compatible

Seriously it looks like a nice platform for xbmc (ps3mc) with extra features waiting to be eaten. The time will come for the original xbox and the xbmc developers need to consider the future, the 360 is a closed platform and doesnt look like getting better anytime soon.

I find it laughable the xbmc team would wait for either Microsoft (lol) or another team to crack the 360 security before considering offical development on another platform even though there will be alternatives.
Im sure even morbo would be pleased.

once you gone XBMC you never want to go back to using something that is anything less.

I agree. I tested MediaPortal which has XBMC roots, it does even more (DVB support) but XBMC is somehow better in what it does. Maybe it is just getting used to and remote hooking up to MP.

That's some awesome work. Still doesn't meet the opengl requirement for XBMC...

All of the required GPU functionality is now available on the PS3 but you would have to go through XBMC and convert the OpenGL calls to the rsx specific calls that the PS3 Linux acceleration uses. It probably wouldn't be much more difficult then adding the OpenGL and SDL render paths, but you would need someone who knows XBMC quite well and is willing to spend the necessary time to do the conversion.

The bigger problem is that right now getting Linux installed and configured with rsx access and Bluetooth support isn't really end-user friendly since it involves patching the kernel sources and/or compiling kernel modules. Before any serious homebrew use can get going some kind of easy solution is required. Some sort of minimal OS, Linux or otherwise, that boots quickly, has proper wireless controller support out of the box and features a graphical program launcher (maybe XBMC?) would be nice.

Note the date on the post :p

apparently you haven't been reading the Linux forums. Even in its pre-alpha state it already kicks ass...

Hi,

I haven't read every one of the 78 posts in this thread, and if the answer is in here, just point me to the right post...

I see many comments in here on the problems for xbmc on ps3 in relation to the access of the 3D rendering within a linuxinstallation.

I was just wondering... Is it totally impossible to find the "ps3-game-development-kit" out there. If someone had access to that kit, wouldn't he/she then be able to write programs with the full access of the ps3?

In my "vision" I see the possibility to make a "game", that is to be started from the ps3 standard menu, (just like any downloaded game/demo)... this "game" would ofcourse not be a game, but a mediaplayer with full access to the HW of the ps3.

I'm so bad with the technical details, so I have no "tools" to value this "vision".

Any thoughts?

//Cybbe

Not at all...

Open platform means nothing but troubles.

What made XBMC so famous? It was Xbox, closed platform, one definite media solution in ONE box. That is the magic behind XBMC.

Come on people, closed platform means performance, optimization, stability.

Once you spread it to Linux PC it is going to lose all these major factors. It is going to act different on different HW, and there are thousands of variations. You will never be able to kame it run as good as on Xbox, or any closed platform, meaning NOT on a PC.

Please don't waste your time arguing about how closed platforms are great etc, to open source developers, no team member has any intention of using stolen Sony SDKs to make a PS3 binary. XBMC is being ported to Linux irrespective of your feelings about open platforms (which is basically that all PCs and PC software suck because they are open hardware platforms? Sounds idiotic if anything.).

We have no intention of supporting every possible hardware configuration. At some point when the port is stable enough, there will be a "target" configuration that we will support.

XBMC might be ported to the PS3 at a much later stage if the PS3 becomes a viable (legal) platform and that's what this thread is about. So please don't troll here about open platforms etc, feel free to contribute productively to the discussion.

you'd bog it down seriously. remember, a gpu usually runs hundreds if not thousands of threads at a time. the cell can do 7.

Are you saying that XBMC codecs uses the GPU with mass-parallel-threading? Isn't this way more non-trivial than just using vector-computations on 6 SPUs (+2 PPC cores) (the 7th one is for the hypervisor on the PS3) ?

...no one seems intrested in writing a non opengl backend for xbmc wich relies on the gpu library for the ps3...

libps3rsx (if that's what you're referring to) doesn't even work on firmware 2.10. Moreover, even if it did, its API is anything but finished. Committing to a pre-pre-alpha incomplete API isn't very wise since it will result in a rewrite down the road.

Thanks for your fantastic work on the linux port.

I have installed Ubuntu on my PS3. Is it possible to compile and run XBMC on it ?

Lexter is right. I've already seen on other forums people stating "something like XBMC will come along very soon on PS3 Linux" and... yes, to think of all the potential here being wasted in that regard would be... just... you know, a little bit of a shame, really.

I find it laughable the xbmc team would wait for either Microsoft (lol) or another team to crack the 360 security before considering official development on another platform even though there will be alternatives.
I'm sure even morbo would be pleased.

I think an attitude like that is pretty laughable. I came here with the same question in mind - but there's no way I would have asked the same way you asked.

Maybe after XBMC 3.0 the developers might start to look at the future (and hey who knows, maybe they will even come up with their own system instead... hint, hint). But as the PS3 does run Linux (ethier well or badly depending on your perspective), there are plenty of other PVR and media center type alternatives that you could use.

Heck, maybe someone might even make a new one, just for the PS3. It would be nice if the PS3 did run XBMC, but as has been pointed out, not everyone has got $600 a time to throw around.... Although I am pretty sure there are enough XBMC fans who would club together to get them some new 'development' machines - if they asked for donations.

If something like that on on digg, there would probably be a metdown.

But anyway, I support these guys 100% whatever they decide to do!

even more likely if you just gave each of the devs 600.00 ;)

Is there no problem with accessing the video processor on the PS3? I thought that was a major hang-up.

So much for pessimism! Looks like cell optimization in ffmpeg is fairly likely to come at some point. Very cool stuff.

man XBMC on PS3 would be amazing.
I know nothing of the processes, im just trying to read up on stuff. Ive been using XBMC for a while now and just got a PS3 and seems annoying going between the 2.
I started using TVersity for the ps3, but its not the same.

Well there are several threads on this already, but the key reasons why nothing has happened yet is that the PS3's architecture is PPC not x86, and also there are no real 3d linux drivers for the PS3. So, it may happen one day, just not anytime soon.

Dustin

anyone know this sites
http://cell.fixstars.com/ps3linux/index.php
http://ctk-dev.sourceforge.net/

could be useful ?

BHH

I'm actually surprised that more people aren't jumping on thislack of interest is not the problem; we said time and time again throughout this topic thread (and everywere else that the PS3 have been suggested) that the problem is XBMC requires OpenGL 2.0 support (or OpenGL 1.5 + OpenGL GLSL extension at the minimum) that features 24bpp or 32bpp for 3D hardware-acceleration support, which XBMC GUI need to run smoothly at an acceptable frame-rate. Without a device driver that enables hardware support you might get 1 or 2 frames-per-seconds displayed on the screen, ...try watching a movie at that rate, (a movie is made up of 24, 25 or 30 frames-per-seconds but your TV actually refreshes the screen even more often than that, more like 60 frames-per-seconds).

Again, it is not the CPU (Central Processor Unit) that is the problem in the PS3 but the lack of direct access and proper OpenGL device drivers under Linux.

None of Team-XBMC developers have the low-level skills required to make such OpenGL device drivers themselves, thus will have to wait and see if someone else produces them for Linux on the PS3.

WOW. This sounds very promising especially with Gamester17 active in the thread and the PS3 forum.No, not really, not yet at least. I only asked a few questions for my own personal interest try to get a better understanding of what would be needed from both sides, but I do not think I am any the wiser from the answers that I got. (I do not think I asked the right questions, probably because I am not a programmer/developer myself). Also, one again to clearify, no programmer/developer from Team-XBMC (or elseware) has volunteered to activly look at the PS3 as a potential XBMC platform, nor to take on the huge project that this would mean.

...and as far as I know, no one on Team-XBMC even owns a Sony PlayStation 3 game-console.

So there's definitely enough power for the GUI even without the RSX.No, there is not! Why that is has already been explained many times previously by Team-XBMC developers in this very topic thread, (please read through the whole thread before commenting). XBMC for PS3 Linux will not happen unless XBMC can use the PS3 GPU (PS3 RSX) for hardware accelerated rendering.

Couldn't we abstract the GUI in a high-level API (if it's not already exist) and just drop the OpenGL stuff to a back-end using this API.Nothing is impossible BUT there is big problem finding an interested and willing developer that owns a PlayStation 3 and is skilled enough to take on such a HUGE task, that is implementing a low-lever API in SDL for the PS3 GPU (PS3 RSX) to replace OpenGL in SDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer, the hardware layer API framework that XBMC for Linux uses).

As far as I know, the bigger problem than GUI is lack of Cell optimized codecs for things like h/x264 (not to mention that at PS3, only PPU is used for that). Ther are some works in progress but nothing mature enough (I'm just telling what I read at ps2dev).That is probably the smallest problem of the hurdles to cross, and it is out of our hands anyway, (The FFmpeg Project (http://www.ffmpeg.org) deals with that part).

XBMC uses directx. So gues.

Sollie.

That's exactly right. Computer hardware is becoming increasingly commoditized. It may cost US$400 or so to build a XBMC/linux box powerful enough for HD right now, but as time passes it will get dramatically cheaper until you can pick up a $100 embedded device with a system on a chip to do it. As an open source project, it can be ported to any system that meets its prerequisites. Linux isn't the death of XBMC, it's the rebirth. Porting to another closed platform would be a deathknell.

How about mplayer?

http://psubuntu.com/2007/11/11/optimizing-video-playback-with-mplayer-ps3/

Given XBMC popularity, PS3 popularity and that the ps2dev devs made major progress with 3D-acceleration PS3 on Linux (they talking Accelerated X are months away) i'd say that

the race for the first screenshot of XBMC on PS3 is ON!

http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?p=60897#60897
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuRLsB2q7QY

As long as you can get all the packages in README.linux installed, you should be able to at least compile it. Last time I tried (YDL not Ubuntu) there were some missing SDL packages. Of course how well it will run is a whole different story given that there is only framebuffer support on the PS3 and accelerated GL is only a distant possibility. Until then, I don't foresee XBMC running in all its glory on the PS3. Mesa, I heard is considering writing a software implementation that takes advantage of the cell. If that turns out to be fast enough then there might be more hope.

I don't see why it wouldn't happen. If there are no restrictions on the linux, then I don't see why someone wouldn't take advantage of it. All I would care to see is some form of the media center. Myth TV is obviously an option but that's one ugly app.

I want XBMC to be as LEGIT as it can be. I'm quite sure most if not all of Team XBMC agrees with this.And you have every right to.

I always mantained that the need for a PC version of your software was for it to have the recognition it deserves on a legit level.

One can only question the time needed to come to this, but it's adamant for me that this is the right decision you have taken.

No, there is not! Why that is has already been explained many times previously by Team-XBMC developers in this very topic thread, (please read through the whole thread before commenting). XBMC for PS3 Linux will not happen unless XBMC can use the PS3 GPU (PS3 RSX) for hardware accelerated rendering.

It's very obvious that you're not a programmer. As a programmer and former demo-coder (in the past), let me assure you that the current GUI in XBMC is no match for the cell-processor, even at 1080p.

Nothing is impossible BUT there is big problem finding an interested and willing developer that owns a PlayStation 3 and is skilled enough to take on such a HUGE task, that is implementing a low-lever API in SDL for the PS3 GPU (PS3 RSX) to replace OpenGL in SDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer, the hardware layer API framework that XBMC for Linux uses).

I agree. Lack of developers is a show-stopper. As for the huge tasks, there could be "fast-tracks" through Framebuffer/XV instead of OpenGL/SDL wrt to simplicity and reuse of components from other projects.

A beta for the ps3. it's really close all that needs to be done is getting developers to start the project since no one has even started to port it for ps3 linux.

http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9287

Please search

GPL code is NOT viral! Not in the sense that allowing it to be used in that manner wold mean they would be required to give up anything "special". The GPL3 might interfere what with the TIVOization stuff but GPL2 might fly. In any case - this is the "path" that the old XBMC took - is that really a path anyone would want to do again?! Able to get code, see code, modify code, but not compile it without breaking licenses? I sure hope not - buy X86 hardware and run it on Linux, it's not THAT expensive for the power you would get.

Why is there such a large hoard of PS3 fans demanding an XBMC port when the PS3 is already a streaming media player? It plays at east DivX and h.264. Is it missing some crititally important codecs? Is the ui very crubmsy? Or is it more about gamers who already have a console and don't want to spend any money on another device.

The UI is great, and I have an XBox already.

I can't speak for everybody, but for me the reason is simple. 100% of my DivX movies are SD and can be played by XBMC on my XBox. The only reason I need/want something other than an XBox is to play HD content**. Unfortunately 99% of HD content is encoded in .mkv files, which the PS3 can't stream. So the streaming capabilities of the PS3 are 100% useless to me - it plays what the XBox already plays and doesn't play what the XBox can't play, hehe.

** Actually the PS3 is horrible at playing DivX, its performance is almost identical to the XBox/XBMC. I can play a 720p DivX on both systems, and they are both smooth for the most part except for high-action parts where they get very choppy. That's right, the PS3 can't keep up with high-bitrate (< 10Mbps) DivX playback at 720p... *sigh*

So anyway, I just wanted to say I am patiently waiting for the day if/when we see a PS3 XBMC liveCD. I currently use my computer to play HD content on my TV but using XBMC would be 100x better :0) I sincerely hope that it becomes possible at some point.

Has the Megabox project been mentioned in this thread? It has basically no functionality now but they're claiming/planning to have full media center features on a liveCD linux distro... have they not yet realized the difficulties they're going to face or do they know something the XBMC team doesn't know?

yeah just abuse me some more that will solve everything and wtf are you on about you random?

Abuse? You're the one that is trying to tell people what these developers will or will not do. He finds you laughable because you assume they are going to develop for the PS3 already which is entirely untrue and based on nothing. Bare in mind that while the PS3 should have the ability to run Linux, the Xbox 360 is rumored now to have a 3rd party dev kit thanks to Microsoft. So it seems that right now either platform would be appealing when needed. Fortunately for the purposes of XBMC, the original xbox seems to work fine for the time being. Honestly the price tag of the PS3 would make it one of the most expensive platforms as far as a media center and the XBMC team might be better off developing their own hardware platform for the cost of the PS3. The xbox was appealing because as a whole it went down to below 200 dollars, making it one of the cheapest media platforms around.

To be honest with the price tags of the PS3 and Xbox360, I think waiting is the smartest thing to do because it may be that more people would rather not even upgrade to either system. All in all time will tell so don't take offense when the developers laugh at your guesses. Developers want something to work off of and your approach is more deserving of a PS3 rumor site.

None of Team-XBMC developers have the low-level skills required to make such OpenGL device drivers themselves, thus will have to wait and see if someone else produces them for Linux on the PS3.

ah well, here's hoping.

even if it were possible to get it up to the speed of the old xbox running xbmc that would be quite something. I'd finally be able to retire my faithful old xbox and have one less box under the telly.

i know we expect the world of you guys and you get little thanks for it (thanks btw :)) but it just feels (to the less techy of us) that it is so close to being possible. so close yet so far it would seem. :(

http://www.psubuntu.com/

It�s easy to install ubuntu on a PS3.

There are alterantives if you look. They may not be XBMC - but unless you plan on twisting the developer's arms - or doing it yourself, you will simply have to be patient and make do with what you can have.

Maybe they will do it, but but hoping that maybe they will give into pressure to do it, is I think very unrealistic.

I guess if you have $600 to buy each of the developers a new PS3, you might be in with a shout - but even then it may not be all that easy a task.

If this were to happen, I would buy a PS3 in a heart beat. The Cell processor could play any of the 1080p content flawlessly.

Hey Grand, any tutorials etc. that you reccomend for Ubuntu on PS3?

Unfortunately I think its going to be a very long time before homebrew can work on PS3 or 360.I guess you didn't visit the link the OT provided. It appears that a full blown version of Linux is coming for PS3, on launch date. If that is the case, mplayer could be functional from day one. When that is true... I guess all you need to replicate the relative majority of XBMC functions is a nice GUI, but the potential for HD playback, in my opinion, will make up for it for a little while. :grin: Let's cross fingers that Sony doesn't cripple this distribution in some stupid way.

XBMC is being ported to Linux. Linux runs on many platforms. Unfortunately the PS3 Linux implementation is lacking some important features right now, which is a separate project, outside of XBMC. Lets hope someone gets that done soon, as I also want XBMC on my PS3.

I'm wondering what about Swap Magic way. Some PS2 Homebrew can be used that way at PS3

No, because PS3 titles are cryptographically signed, just like xbox360 games. That would only work if the console was fully cracked wide open like the xbox1, or if Sony agreed to let the XBMC team release their title as a commercial program. But since the code is under GPL and the GPL acts like a virus I'm not entirely sure how that would work.

#If you have any other info about this subject , Please add it free.#

March 21st, 2010, posted by anonym

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